Curse

UnChosen · May 01, 2010, 04:22 AM // 04:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfected Shadow

I'm guessing flail. He's comparing using master of damage numbers, which means Searing flames was hitting 2 extra adjacent targets. What he's saying he saw was that a warrior auto attacking with IAS on 1 target did similar damage to an ele using Searing flames on 3 targets over 3 minutes.

And that's auto attacking too. Once you factor in stuff like cyclone axe, hundred blades, whirlwind attack, and the various dagger chains involving death blossom...the damage puts the Ele's to shame. In addition, there are monsters that are far more resistant to elemental damage in HM in comparison to master of damage.

Martin Alvito · May 01, 2010, 05:10 AM // 05:10

Coming in late, but I can't help but think of an analogy here:

The CTs have a Colt. It has a scope and is OP as hell. We know this because every T with a brain that finds one chucks his gun and scoops the Colt.

To compensate, do you:

a) take the scope off the Colt?
b) give the AK a scope and make the Sig OSOK on unarmored targets?

One is a lot less likely to have unintended consequences than the other.

Kashrlyyk · May 01, 2010, 05:38 AM // 05:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nerel

I'm not familiar with this 'Flay' skill, does it affect all nearby foes as well? Or did you just try comparing an AoE that can (and in PvE often does) strike multiple foes with the damage output of a Warrior against a single target?

"Flail", should have checked how it named. AoE spells are hard to compare using the master of damage, he only gives single target damage and has an ac of 60 and he is just standing there. Which is exactly the reason I also included "Mind Blast". Still using "Cyclone Axe" + IAS, warriors have a non elite AoE skill that outdamages "Searing Flames" + "Glowing Gaze" + "Fire Attunement". (That are two skills used for the warrior and 3 skills used for the elementalist). If I had used a "Zealous Weapon" I might deal even more damage.

But the whole MoD is just idiotic. Just take your heroes and henchman and check against moving, defending, interrupting and attacking enemies and time how long it takes to take down a specific group if you use "Searing Flames" or if you use an IAS and "Cyclone Axe". We all have 3 elementalist heroes and 3 warrior heroes.

If you don`t want to time it yourself, vanquish an area with different builds and check the time it took with /age.

FoxBat · May 01, 2010, 05:46 AM // 05:46

Yes 3 cyclone axe heroes are garbage. A single frontline player with mark of pain, strength of honor, and splinter weapon spread out on his heroes is a different story. Physical AoE's edge is primarily because the pump is armor ignoring.

Cuilan · May 01, 2010, 04:04 PM // 16:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Coming in late, but I can't help but think of an analogy here:

The CTs have a Colt. It has a scope and is OP as hell. We know this because every T with a brain that finds one chucks his gun and scoops the Colt.

To compensate, do you:

a) take the scope off the Colt?
b) give the AK a scope and make the Sig OSOK on unarmored targets?

One is a lot less likely to have unintended consequences than the other.

That would make sense maybe if I knew what CTs, Colts, T, or Sig OSOK were.

maxxfury · May 01, 2010, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

That would make sense maybe if I knew what CTs, Colts, T, or Sig OSOK were.

counter strike
CT=counter terrorists
T=terrorists
colt=colt m4a1 rifle
ak=ak47 rifle
OSOK= one shot one kill
sig= sig 550

Counter terrorists m4a1 with scope is the balls! every terrorist who gets the chance loots on and dumps their weapon.

How to balance this?
1> remove scope and return a balance,
2> add scope to ak to overpower both then make the sig 550 beast. Leaving one side still more powerfull, aka powercreep.

2< been more likely to have more unexpected and unwanted side effects of everyone killing faster and having more firepower, aka more powercreep.
*hope that helps a little * and nice analogy

*edit

vamp08 · May 01, 2010, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

counter strike
CT=counter terrorists
T=terrorists
colt=colt m4a1 rifle
ak=ak47 rifle
OSOK= one shot one kill
sig= sig p228 pistol

Counter terrorists m4a1 with scope is the balls! every terrorist who gets the chance loots on and dumps their weapon.

How to balance this?
1> remove scope and return a balance,
2> add scope to ak to overpower both then make the sig pistol beast. Leaving one side still more powerfull, aka powercreep.

2< been more likely to have more unexpected and unwanted side effects of everyone killing faster and having more firepower, aka more powercreep.
*hope that helps a little * and nice analogy

*Looks at the title of the website*
Silly me, I guess this is the Counter Strike Source forums

/endsarcasm

Del · May 01, 2010, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by vamp08

*Looks at the title of the website*
Silly me, I guess this is the Counter Strike Source forums

/endsarcasm

god forbid someone uses an analogy that isn't guildwars related. you silly goose.

snaek · May 01, 2010, 10:52 PM // 22:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Coming in late, but I can't help but think of an analogy here:

The CTs have a Colt. It has a scope and is OP as hell. We know this because every T with a brain that finds one chucks his gun and scoops the Colt.

To compensate, do you:

a) take the scope off the Colt?
b) give the AK a scope and make the Sig OSOK on unarmored targets?

One is a lot less likely to have unintended consequences than the other.

sorry to nitpick, but:
1) the colt doesn't have a scope, it has a silencer (which for the most part isn't all the useful)
2) the ak can be considered the better weapon in the hands of a skilled player (it is stronger at the expense of less accurate bullet spread--which is negated once a player learns how to control recoil)
3) scope does not give a noticeable advantage in cs gameplay mechanics, which is one of the reasons ak/colt sees more use than sig/aug.
4) the nubs--oops i mean t's--that trade in their ak for a colt are doing so most likely because it is easier to use or that they are more comfortable with it.

also, what exactly are you trying to make an analogy of?

@max
i'm pretty sure he was referring to the sig rifle, not the sig pistol. even tho the sig rifle has a scope, it is generally considered worse than the ak--scope or no scope.

maxxfury · May 02, 2010, 12:11 AM // 00:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

god forbid someone uses an analogy that isn't guildwars related. you silly goose.

i know mate! can you believe someone used some outside reference as part of an analogy..oh wait no, an analogy requires an outside reference..i cant believe someone used the correct format for said analogy, making it infact an analogy......xD

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

@max
i'm pretty sure he was referring to the sig rifle, not the sig pistol. even tho the sig rifle has a scope, it is generally considered worse than the ak--scope or no scope.

fair enough :P its been a long while xD 550 commando, check. I was just trying to explain the analogy in some fashion and the fail with the abbreviations

The analogy was i believe that because one thing is over powered, its a bad idea to make other things just as overpowered to balance the sides out, where as if you took the over powered thing and 'nerfed' it to the same level as the other things...you gain a better balance without the power creep.

And in gw terms more specifically, its prob a bad idea to over power the mes to compete with the other over powered stuff like necros, sf, er and ap ect, when they should infact, lower the strength of the currently over powered things, and adding to the power creep, but actually reversing/removing it.

The Drunkard · May 02, 2010, 12:13 AM // 00:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

I think the idea is it would actually allow a mesmer to be on the front lines without dying horribly.

It still doens't help much. There are very few illusion skills that would synergize with IW, and the fact that IW won't stack with any other skills makes it more of a tanking skill.

I can't wait for these to be implemented for pvp, as it would probably ruin it. Psychic distraction will destroy any team spikes, empathy will ruin any meele aside from knocklocks, and frustration+pspike will give mesmers OMGWTF spiking power. Expect the next update to make 5 mes+3 monk teams where the mesmers are all bots

Cuilan · May 02, 2010, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Nerfing of other professions in PvE would be too much for Anet and the Test Krewe can handle. Too much for one update and harmful to PvE if from multiple nerf nukes not all hitting them at once. It would be a witch hunt.

Daesu · May 02, 2010, 04:25 AM // 04:25

What I only need for my mesmers are powerful signets within the fast casting attribute line so that only primary mesmers can use them effectively.

Eragon Zarroc · May 02, 2010, 04:26 AM // 04:26

sounds kinda scary with mesmer mobs O_O

Martin Alvito · May 02, 2010, 04:53 AM // 04:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

sorry to nitpick, but:
1) the colt doesn't have a scope, it has a silencer (which for the most part isn't all the useful)

It did in the very early days of CS. It also had the accuracy it presently has with the silencer OFF when the silencer was ON.

The result was that there was no reason to use any other gun. Anything you could do with an AWP, you could do with a Colt and multiple trigger presses (and silently to boot). The AK's extra first shot accuracy was nice in limited situations, but with the scope you were going to kill the target just as dead with one more bullet. And yes, the Sig is not a great gun.

But the solution to the problem of the original OP Colt was not to improve the Terrorists' assault rifles. If you do that, then you have rebalanced the game at the cost of creating a huge array of useless guns. The right plan, which the developers took, was to nerf the Colt by removing the scope. That opened up limited situations where you would want the Steyr as your assault rifle, made sniper rifles relevant, and also fixed the balance problem.

Seems to me that fewer of you have played CS than I would have thought. Guess I'm just old. I brought up the case because it's a similar balance problem that cropped up in another popular game. I expected people to be familar enough with it to recognize the game's slang. After all, it was the single most popular competitive online game for half a dozen years or so.

StormDragonZ · May 02, 2010, 05:38 AM // 05:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

To compensate, do you:

a) take the scope off the Colt?
b) give the AK a scope and make the Sig OSOK on unarmored targets?

One is a lot less likely to have unintended consequences than the other.

Choose A. The more "chaos", the better. The less likely for "game freeze" when shot by "the Colt" is ultimately better than choosing to "add other things" to the original.

Don't worry, I'm very good at deciphering.

However, one question: Is this a fair fight with equal number of CT & T, or does one side have an advantage?

Amy Awien · May 02, 2010, 06:59 AM // 06:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

But the solution to the problem of the original OP Colt was not to improve the Terrorists' assault rifles.

The real problem is in the environment, the focus HM puts on damage at the expensive of all other elements of the gameplay.

Fay Vert · May 02, 2010, 10:30 AM // 10:30

Well, I guess this thread is done with now!

snaek · May 02, 2010, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Seems to me that fewer of you have played CS than I would have thought. Guess I'm just old. I brought up the case because it's a similar balance problem that cropped up in another popular game. I expected people to be familar enough with it to recognize the game's slang. After all, it was the single most popular competitive online game for half a dozen years or so.

i don't really consider the old beta versions of cs to be that competitive (at least not to the degree the 1.x version were). likewise, i don't expect a lot of people to be familiar with cs on a gw forum, let alone old beta versions of it.

Morgoth the dark · May 03, 2010, 08:58 AM // 08:58

good old 1.5